I'm careful to say Ecstasy versus MDMA because I think that in the recreational setting, we don't know exactly what they're taking or what they're getting. In the research model, you can say this is MDMA. But it's certainly fair to say that groups of people get together and take Ecstasy, whether they're at a house party, or camping, or on the beach, or whether they're at a big rave, or a gathering like Burning Man, it's pretty easy to see that there is a use for Ecstasy in these group settings, that for a lot of people is therapeutic.
Feeling like you belong to the group, having this outpouring of love and acceptance, the oxytocin-mediated bonding and trust that happens between people when they feel like they're in the same tribe, that kind of connection is potentially very therapeutic. A big problem with why people feel so stressed out and depressed and anxious is that they're isolated. So, feeling less isolated and more connected in a group can absolutely be therapeutic.
Erik: That's great. And also, some people may not be aware that MDMA is no longer a patentable drug.
Dr. Holland: Right.
Erik: And so this is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to get it through the approval process, there's not much financial incentive. How would this undermine Prozac, Zoloft and these chemicals that don't really cure the illness?
Dr. Holland: Right. I have a new book out called "Moody Bitches" where I am trying to undermine the SSRIs. I think they are being over-prescribed. And I think that there are things that people can do and changes that they can make in how they live their lives that will make them feel more happy and more relaxed, and not feel like they need to medicate themselves so much.
But this is very big business. One out of four women in America right now is taking a psychiatric medication. And antidepressants are really a huge billion-dollar industry, and it's nice to think that maybe MDMA-assisted psychotherapy will take a bite out of this business. But worldwide, I don't think these SSRIs are going anywhere.
And I do think that for some people, certainly people with post-traumatic stress disorder, that these medicines do sweep the dirt under the carpet and just give you a lumpy carpet. And my goal with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is that you take the carpet out back, and you beat the hell out of it, and you sweep the floor, and then you put the carpet back, and you don't have a lumpy carpet. So, it may be a more extreme way of dealing with the problems, really tackling the problems head on.
Feeling like you belong to the group, having this outpouring of love and acceptance, the oxytocin-mediated bonding and trust that happens between people when they feel like they're in the same tribe, that kind of connection is potentially very therapeutic. A big problem with why people feel so stressed out and depressed and anxious is that they're isolated. So, feeling less isolated and more connected in a group can absolutely be therapeutic.
Erik: That's great. And also, some people may not be aware that MDMA is no longer a patentable drug.
Dr. Holland: Right.
Erik: And so this is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to get it through the approval process, there's not much financial incentive. How would this undermine Prozac, Zoloft and these chemicals that don't really cure the illness?
Dr. Holland: Right. I have a new book out called "Moody Bitches" where I am trying to undermine the SSRIs. I think they are being over-prescribed. And I think that there are things that people can do and changes that they can make in how they live their lives that will make them feel more happy and more relaxed, and not feel like they need to medicate themselves so much.
But this is very big business. One out of four women in America right now is taking a psychiatric medication. And antidepressants are really a huge billion-dollar industry, and it's nice to think that maybe MDMA-assisted psychotherapy will take a bite out of this business. But worldwide, I don't think these SSRIs are going anywhere.
And I do think that for some people, certainly people with post-traumatic stress disorder, that these medicines do sweep the dirt under the carpet and just give you a lumpy carpet. And my goal with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is that you take the carpet out back, and you beat the hell out of it, and you sweep the floor, and then you put the carpet back, and you don't have a lumpy carpet. So, it may be a more extreme way of dealing with the problems, really tackling the problems head on.
